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moviewizguy View Drop Down
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    Posted: March 09 2010 at 4:57am
Originally posted by BurnHollywoodBurn


Hey, kid, clearly saturnwatcher and I would have better luck explaining the meaning of life to our pets than convincing you that don't know what you're talking about, and it's hurting your street credit here.

It's just odd that you would bash my opinion on this film when weeks earlier you said to Vits that you respect peoples' opinions. I know what I'm talking about because I have a film by the brilliant Ingmar Bergman to support it. You posted earlier questioning just what was the point of the violence, and then later providing puns and jokes. I don't know if you've seen Wes Craven's version or Bergman's original version of the story but it really doesn't take a genius to find out what was the point. Even the trailer for this film suggested the following: "If bad people hurt someone you love, how far would you go to hurt them back?" So I'm just astounded how much you have a large stick up you you-know-what, when you question the obvious. It's as if you're asking rhetorical questions.

So if you want to take every bad movie ever made and pull little "facts" out of thin air about how great they are, go right ahead.

Whether a film is bad or not is in the eye of the beholder. And no, I don't pull out little "facts" out of thin air because I actually have links to them. The number one source I have is actually watching this film and judging from your posts, you haven't seen this film, or any of the originals, yet, so I'm in disbelief how you can comment on this issue when you haven't seen the film.

In the end, everyone here will be making fun of you for it. Yeah, I'm done with you too, because after reading your posts, I've realized you're no better than these other people who appear out of nowhere and throw poorly spelled hate messages at us for making fun of their bad movies. Have fun living in ignorant bliss in your support of movies made for the lowest common denominator!

You said the following on this link: http://razzies.com/forum/the-alltime-100-berry-worst_topic1764_page6.html "Sometimes, it all comes down to a matter of personal taste, I guess." What happened to that? Why am I so special for the center of your ridicule? The question I ask to you is "Why?" Are you trying to achieve a purpose for doing so? Have you benefited from bashing my opinions? Has anyone benifited from it?
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Posts: 3557 		Post Options Post Options   Quote BurnHollywoodBurn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2010 at 7:49am
I'll just say this. You can't compare "Clockwork Orange" to modern torture porn movies. "CO" was a thinking man's movie that was about violence in society. Torture porn movies are all about shock value for teenagers to spend a few bucks on and then forget about a few hours later. So pulling this card everytime you defend a horror movie is a moot point. Having a graphic rape scene doesn't qualify as being a reason why a movie is good. Sure, "Boys Don't Cry" had a rape scene, but it didnt overpower the rest of the movie, which performances stood on its own, while no one seriously went to see this movie for the performances, just what creative ways people were going to be killed off.
 
And as I said before, Vits will eventually admit, "yeah, it's wasn't a great movie". But you on the other hand, will not give up even though an entire message board of people who are more knowlegdable about the movie industry and how it works telling you what the flaws in your arguement are. And it's because of movie goers like you who accept movies like this as quality entertainment that such bad movies exist in the first place. In other words, you're part of the problem, and that is why I (and just about everyone else on the forum) ridicule you.
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Posts: 2577 		Post Options Post Options   Quote saturnwatcher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2010 at 3:20pm
I would point out that CO was not just a movie about violence in society, but it carried a reverse Frankenstein theme: It dared ask whether it might not be just as morally questionable to unmake a monster as to make one. I would challenge MWG to present a thesis on how LHOTL comes close to presenting as many interesting an relevant themes.
Nine times out of ten, in art as in life, there is no truth to be discovered, only an error to be exposed.--H.L. Menken
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Posts: 2136 		Post Options Post Options   Quote moviewizguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2010 at 4:31pm
Originally posted by BurnHollywoodBurn

I'll just say this. You can't compare "Clockwork Orange" to modern torture porn movies.

What you're clearly not understanding is that for the past few posts, I have been repeating and repeating and repeating that this film is not a torture porn film. If it is, then you can call Deliverance, Taken (it even has a torture scene that was re-shot to get a PG-13 rating), CO, etc torture porn films. Nothing in this film, I repeat YET AGAIN, suggests anything CLOSE to being a torture porn film. And YET AGAIN, I have to say if you have actually seen the movie, you'll understand. And I have a good source: The director himself. Iliadis (the director) expressed that he did not want to go the way of "torture porn", which is what he sees most horror films moving toward, but instead show a sense of "urgency" with the parents’ actions.

"CO" was a thinking man's movie that was about violence in society.

It's actually presents an ethical question on whether it's better to "tame" an evil being or leave him be.

Torture porn movies are all about shock value for teenagers to spend a few bucks on and then forget about a few hours later. So pulling this card everytime you defend a horror movie is a moot point.

Ok. We're really getting nowhere. Everytime I try to convince you that this isn't a torture porn film, you ignore what I say and go back to space one.

Sure, "Boys Don't Cry" had a rape scene, but it didnt overpower the rest of the movie, which performances stood on its own, while no one seriously went to see this movie for the performances, just what creative ways people were going to be killed off.

Again, you ignore my posts. In my original post, I said the performances were terrific. *sigh* I'm kinda tired repeating myself. If people actually went to see this movie to see people getting killed creatively, then they must be disappointed because there were no  "creative" deaths in this film. Do you call getting stabbed a creative death scene? Do you call bleeding to death a creative death scene? Do you call getting shot a creative death scene? If you just see this film, you'd noticed the points your bringing up now has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the film.
 
And as I said before, Vits will eventually admit, "yeah, it's wasn't a great movie". But you on the other hand, will not give up even though an entire message board of people who are more knowlegdable about the movie industry and how it works telling you what the flaws in your arguement are.

Oh, as long as he says they're not really great movies, THEN you let it pass, because the world revolves around you, right? As long as people are willing to admit that their opinions are wrong, you'd let their opinions slide, right? I'm gonna shoot myself. You're nowhere near knowledgeable in films than I am. We're both stuck on the same boat. And flaws in my argument? Excuse me? I suggest you read your arguments. They're flawed as hell and filled with holes as big as a truck driving through a wall.

And it's because of movie goers like you who accept movies like this as quality entertainment that such bad movies exist in the first place. In other words, you're part of the problem, and that is why I (and just about everyone else on the forum) ridicule you.

When did I say the following, or any of these variations in my opinion for this film? "OH MY GOD! This film is freaking awesome! The death scenes were soooo creative and it was soooo cool to see people die in creative ways! I jizzed on my pants every time I saw someone get killed by a gun because that is so freaking creative! It's not as if war films or any other action films have done it before! Oh, I also looooooved the rape scene because it was so freaking funny to see that girl suffer on screen!" You're what's wrong in the world.
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Posts: 2136 		Post Options Post Options   Quote moviewizguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2010 at 4:51pm
Originally posted by saturnwatcher

I would point out that CO was not just a movie about violence in society, but it carried a reverse Frankenstein theme: It dared ask whether it might not be just as morally questionable to unmake a monster as to make one.

That's correct. At least you know what you're talking about.

I would challenge MWG to present a thesis on how LHOTL comes close to presenting as many interesting an relevant themes.

The problem is that I never challenged you in the first place when saying this film had as deep of morals and themes as CO. But what I did post posts earlier is that it brought some relevant themes from the original The Virgin Spring to this film, largely ignoring the religious side. One huge relevant theme is that people are capable of doing extreme things. The sceenwriter even had the following to say about the themes in the film: "What would a typical family do in such an extreme scenario? [...] We're asking ourselves through it: 'How are they going to do this? How would we do it?' Then that poses the opportunity to really explore the extreme nature. In terms of Krug - these are evil human beings. Humans are capable of evil sh*t all the time, so it was a chance for me to get into the R-rated version of [these themes]."

So yes, the theme that humans are capable of doing really evil things is still relevant till this day because we see it on the news all of the time. However, the film also leaves a moral ambiguity: The so-called victims in this film commit attrocities in the name of survival that are as violent and as inhumane as the actions of the degenerate forces arrayed against them. It also focuses on the theme of justice, which is always, or mostly, presented in revenge-type films like Death Sentence, Death Wish, The Brave One, Taken, etc.
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Posts: 3557 		Post Options Post Options   Quote BurnHollywoodBurn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2010 at 8:49pm
See, but this is my overall arguement with comparing "Clockwork Orange" with torture porn. After all these decades, when people talk of "CO" (besides the infamous holding the eyes wide open scene), what do they talk about? The violence? No. For the most part, they talk about the performances, mainly Malcom McDowell's. Now, do you seriously believe in your heart of hearts that decades from now, ANYONE is going to be talking about the acting in "LHOTL" or "Hostel" or any other number of torture porn movies? No, of course not. They are going to talk about the sex scenes, and the rape scenes, and the bloody deaths, because all of that overpowered the rest of the movie. And I'll even point out that when reviewing the movie, you mentioned the rape scene BEFORE mentioning the performances. I think that's a strong clue that the rape and murder scenes overpowered the performances, and the performances take a back seat to the shock value entertainment. And let's get this out in the air as well, NO ONE goes to see horror movies for the performances, EVERYONE goes just to see what kind of cartoonish deaths the movie makers came up with. Sure, back in the 60s or 70s, people might have gone for the performances, but nowadays, it's just exercises in who can be more overly bloody and broaderline NC-17 rated.
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Posts: 2136 		Post Options Post Options   Quote moviewizguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2010 at 4:52pm
This is so very pointless.
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Posts: 2136 		Post Options Post Options   Quote moviewizguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2010 at 4:58pm
Originally posted by BurnHollywoodBurn

Now, do you seriously believe in your heart of hearts that decades from now, ANYONE is going to be talking about the acting in "LHOTL" or "Hostel" or any other number of torture porn movies? No, of course not.

I'm sorry, but even The Exorcist won't be talked about because of the acting. It'll be talked about because of the shocking scenes it presented in that time, including a girl turning her head around 360 degrees. I also never argued that people will be talking about the performances.

They are going to talk about the sex scenes, and the rape scenes, and the bloody deaths, because all of that overpowered the rest of the movie.

Because those scenes are the point of the entire film. Read my short "thesis" above.

And I'll even point out that when reviewing the movie, you mentioned the rape scene BEFORE mentioning the performances.

Maybe that's because I have a structure to my reviews? I don't mention performances by any actors in any of my reviews until the last 2 paragraphs or so.

I think that's a strong clue that the rape and murder scenes overpowered the performances, and the performances take a back seat to the shock value entertainment.

Let me see you watch this film and call those scenes entertaining...exactly.

And let's get this out in the air as well, NO ONE goes to see horror movies for the performances, EVERYONE goes just to see what kind of cartoonish deaths the movie makers came up with. Sure, back in the 60s or 70s, people might have gone for the performances, but nowadays, it's just exercises in who can be more overly bloody and broaderline NC-17 rated.

Sure, I'll agree with that. Then many viewers will be surprised that a few horror films actually have something to say, like George A Romero's films and The Mist. Even Drag Me to Hell is a parable.
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Posts: 2577 		Post Options Post Options   Quote saturnwatcher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2010 at 5:36pm
Even Drag Me to Hell is a parable
Go for it Burn LOL
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Posts: 3557 		Post Options Post Options   Quote BurnHollywoodBurn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2010 at 5:42pm
Originally posted by moviewizguy

I'm sorry, but even The Exorcist won't be talked about because of the acting. It'll be talked about because of the shocking scenes it presented in that time, including a girl turning her head around 360 degrees. I also never argued that people will be talking about the performances.
Yeah, but overall, it was up for Oscars. An other it has some crazy shock value scenes, there was ALOT of good acting in between.

Because those scenes are the point of the entire film. Read my short "thesis" above.
Yeah, they are plot points, sure, btu you can easily get the point across and cut away from it. But no, they stay on it. Why? Shock value.

Maybe that's because I have a structure to my reviews? I don't mention performances by any actors in any of my reviews until the last 2 paragraphs or so.
So what you're saying that with every genre movie, critics should review everything that makes the movie a genre movie first, and all other aspects of the movie should be second?

Let me see you watch this film and call those scenes entertaining...exactly.
Well, apparently there are sick f***s out there that did find it entertaining and paid to see it. Probably the same kind of sick f***s who go see "Hostel" and laugh at all the violence.

Sure, I'll agree with that. Then many viewers will be surprised that a few horror films actually have something to say, like George A Romero's films and The Mist. Even Drag Me to Hell is a parable.
Yeah, that's why I have a low opinion of horror movies. It's just cheap jumps and thrills and not much else to them. 
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Posts: 2136 		Post Options Post Options   Quote moviewizguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2010 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by BurnHollywoodBurn

Yeah, but overall, it was up for Oscars. An other it has some crazy shock value scenes, there was ALOT of good acting in between.

And so did this film. If you read some reviews from the critics, some would say the performances were surprisingly good for a film of this genre and one also mentions how the performances felt like coming from a completely different movie.

Yeah, they are plot points, sure, btu you can easily get the point across and cut away from it. But no, they stay on it. Why? Shock value.

It all comes down to creative decisions. Some directors would fade out early in a disturbing while others would rather have the camera linger.

So what you're saying that with every genre movie, critics should review everything that makes the movie a genre movie first, and all other aspects of the movie should be second?

I never said critics should do anything. I'm only saying that's how I structure my reviews. I need order in my life and the way I structure my reviews is talk about the movie as a whole first, and then go inside with the performances, effects, production design, costume design, soundtrack, etc. It's my personal decision how I structure my reviews.

Well, apparently there are sick f***s out there that did find it entertaining and paid to see it. Probably the same kind of sick f***s who go see "Hostel" and laugh at all the violence.

Well, when I saw Hostel, I was surprised by how much it slowly turned into a black comedy. I went in expecting torture porn but went out smiling because of how the the film shifted its tone to a comedic one. Oh, even Hostel itself presents itself an interesting theme: How people would pay to kill other people. I don't know, but Eli Roth said that he saw an internet ad on that and that was the idea that sparked the rest of the movie.
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Posts: 2136 		Post Options Post Options   Quote moviewizguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2010 at 5:58pm
Originally posted by saturnwatcher

Go for it Burn LOL

Why are you laughing? Even director Sam Raimi stated that himself. Now look at who made a fool of himself.
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Yes, I've certainly been put in my place. When a hack director like Sam Raimi informs the world that an absolute piece of trash like Drag Me to Hell is a parable, who am I to think he is full of baloney?
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Posts: 3557 		Post Options Post Options   Quote BurnHollywoodBurn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2010 at 6:21pm
Originally posted by moviewizguy


And so did this film. If you read some reviews from the critics, some would say the performances were surprisingly good for a film of this genre and one also mentions how the performances felt like coming from a completely different movie.
Clearly not strong enough in comparison.

It all comes down to creative decisions. Some directors would fade out early in a disturbing while others would rather have the camera linger.
And what of someone like a Uwe Boll who would have sex scenes on camera, nudity for not reason, and have animals and kids die on screen. Is that really creative decisions? Doubtful, just shock value.


I never said critics should do anything. I'm only saying that's how I structure my reviews. I need order in my life and the way I structure my reviews is talk about the movie as a whole first, and then go inside with the performances, effects, production design, costume design, soundtrack, etc. It's my personal decision how I structure my reviews.
Well, isn't the acting and the story the main focus of the movie? Everything else is just garnish and presentation that could make or break the movie.

Well, when I saw Hostel, I was surprised by how much it slowly turned into a black comedy. I went in expecting torture porn but went out smiling because of how the the film shifted its tone to a comedic one. Oh, even Hostel itself presents itself an interesting theme: How people would pay to kill other people. I don't know, but Eli Roth said that he saw an internet ad on that and that was the idea that sparked the rest of the movie.
Yeah, but people killing people in graphic detail should not be considered comedy. That is the ulimate in bad taste.
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Posts: 3557 		Post Options Post Options   Quote BurnHollywoodBurn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2010 at 6:21pm
Originally posted by moviewizguy

Originally posted by saturnwatcher

Go for it Burn LOL

Why are you laughing? Even director Sam Raimi stated that himself. Now look at who made a fool of himself.
From his past posts, saturnwatcher seems very against graphic violence in movies. I think that's why he's cheering on my opinion aginst torture porn movies.
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Posts: 3557 		Post Options Post Options   Quote BurnHollywoodBurn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2010 at 6:23pm
Originally posted by saturnwatcher

Yes, I've certainly been put in my place. When a hack director like Sam Raimi informs the world that an absolute piece of trash like Drag Me to Hell is a parable, who am I to think he is full of baloney?
At least Raimi admits when his movies are s*** that should not be taken seriously. Meanwhile, Michael Bay walks around thinking he's the best thing that happened to Hollywood.
The Four Horsemen of the Moviepocalypse: uncalled for sequels/remakes/reboots, 3-D surcharges, untalented "celebrities", and anything with Michael Bay's name attached to it.
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