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Let’s stop the Sly slagging please

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ramonesun View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ramonesun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Let’s stop the Sly slagging please
    Posted: August 11 2010 at 10:37pm
I have to agree there. His acting style isnt perfect, but its human. In his best work, we can relate to him on every human level. The fact that he made rocky is enough to make him a ledgend even if he made crap for the rest of is life (though he didnt).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote BurnHollywoodBurn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2010 at 8:51pm
Originally posted by ramonesun

I have to agree there. His acting style isnt perfect, but its human. In his best work, we can relate to him on every human level. The fact that he made rocky is enough to make him a ledgend even if he made crap for the rest of is life (though he didnt).
A legend? NO! An artist? NO! A pop culture icon? Sure. Again, you're holding the man in high regards just for one role, and that one role doesn't make up for the mile high pile of bad movies and performances that he has made since then.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ramonesun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2010 at 10:29pm
Why cant i hold the man in high regards for one film? If Michaelangelo's sistine chapel was his only famous work and everything else he did was considered crap, would you still call him an artist? I would. Most of Orson Welle's work in the cinematic field isnt held in nearly as high esteem as Kane, and many of them remain disliked, but his is called one of the greatest of all filmakers. I'm not comparing Stallone to Michelangelo or Welles though, I'm merely saying that if someone makes a wonderful, brilliant piece of art, that has touched people for many, many years, even if his other work is so-so, he should still be considered an artist for making a truley remarkable film (Rocky) that represents a high point in seventies filmaking, American filmaking, and maybe even filmaking in general.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote BurnHollywoodBurn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2010 at 6:01pm
You mentioned Michelangelo and Welles like I shouldn't compare them to Stallone, but you make it too tempting. I'm not saying "Rocky" wasn't a good, inspiring, crowd-pleasing movie, but at least Michelangleo and Welles didn't milk their masterpieces for all their worth by repeating that masterpiece over and over again like Stallone has. As I wrote before, yes you can be seen as an artist for making one masterpiece, but that is almost never the case. To be totally remembered and considered an artist, you need to make a string of masterpieces. No artist the level of Michaelangelo made a living with only one work of art, they had to make more, otherwise, they wouldn't be seen as an artist. Stallone didn't make a series of matserpieces after "Rocky", he just filmed the same movie 5 more times.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ramonesun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2010 at 8:52pm

But the funny thing is, even in the other rocky fillms, i was still rooting for him as Rocky. That takes skill. And first blood is an action film with a message, which seems very artistic too me. I feel the only reason he makes sequels is because 1: Rocky and Rambo still remain loveable and even though bad films can be made with them, there is still great story potential with those characters (the most recent rocky film received good reviews and proved that too a certain extent), and 2: Stallone grew up with little education in a bad neighborhood with little support, so its understandable that all his films are gritty, violent, and down to earth (at least his action films dont feel polished, but have a certain grittiness to them, which seems like an artistic choice to me).  In his case though, Rocky proves Stallone is an artist, just not a remakable one. But you can see the craftsmanship he put into first blood and rocky (the script he made with the very last dime he had, he was very poor at the time), and i feel that only an artist could do something like Rocky on a first try (Rocky was his first stint at moviemaking ever, other than a very short career as a porn actor). Rocky and First Blood has true emtion, and Rocky especially, emotions that could only come about through the work of an artist. Something that moved the world as deeply as Rocky had to have come from an artist, not a money hungry entertainer. We could go on though. You have valid points, and i hope mine seem valid as well

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Post Options Post Options   Quote BurnHollywoodBurn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 10:31am
Sorry, but by the time of "Rocky 4", people stopped caring. Everyone knows Rocky was going to win, and by the time of "Rocky 5", well, there really wasn't any point for that movie to be made. There's really no skill in getting people to cheer for the underdog, it just comes natural to human nature. Just show the guy down on his luck for the first two acts of the movie, show a montage of him bettering himself, then show him winning and reaching his life goal/dream. It works for one or two movies, but not six! And yes, "First Blood" had a message to it, but every Rambo movie since it was just mindless action.
 
But no, Stallone didn't keep making sequels because the characters are so lovable. He did them because he was typecasted into those roles and he knew people would only pay money to see him as either one of those roles. I mean, has any non-Rocky or non-Rambo movie that Stallone has done been a runaway hit on par those series?
 
And you can proclaim Stallone an aritst just for "Rocky 1" all you want, but I have a much more fitting titles for him: one-hit wonder OR one-trick pony.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ramonesun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 3:04pm
If rooting for the underdog is human nature, then how come most films that followed after Rocky were never as well recevied? In fact, most people hate films like that now, with the exception of Mickey Rourke in the wrestler. Yet people still love Rocky. So your theory on that is wrong. You almost sound like a hollywood producer, saying certain things naturally attract people no matter how it is handled. That quite insulting of you. Also, you left out the fact that Rocky six received good reviews, and (spoiler alert) Rocky loses! That wasnt predictable. All the punches taken in the  Rocky films were also actual punches, since Stallone wanted the fights to look as releastic as possible (the villain in Rocky 6 was actually played by a real proffesional boxer, although using the word villain seems a wrong word choice, as Rocky's opponent comes off as a nice guy with admiration for Rocky. That too, is not typical). If taking real punches to show the brutality of boxing isn't suffering for your art, then I don't know what is. I mean seriously, you think a money grubbing entertainer would take real punches to make a boxing match look dirty and realistic? I doubt it. You also make the word one trick pony seem like an insult to certain actors who play certain roles their entire lives. Leslie Neilsen of the airplane and naked gun films is a good example. He always plays the serious looking moron in the most comical events imaginable. But that dosnt make him any less of an artist (if you think he isnt one, then i guess your ignroing the fact that comedy is an art form).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote BurnHollywoodBurn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 6:09pm
So, let me get this straight, you're admiting that the "Rocky" movies were not well recevied, and yet we should consider Stallone as an artist for creating them? How does this make any sense? I was talking about the underdog factor when it comes to the movie going audience, NOT critics. And real punches, you say? Have you really looked at them? Because you can clearly see that some of them missed by miles. Sounds like a story Stallone made up to make himself look good. And as for Leslie Neilsen, again, you haven't brushed up on your film history, because there was a time before "Airplane" when he was a serious actor. But yes, now he's a one-trick pony, but at no point did I say he should be considered or remembered as an artist, now did I?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ramonesun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2010 at 9:31am
First off, only the foruth and the 5th rockys were truley horribly recived. Second, those punches were real and Stallone actually took them. It isnt some fabricated tale he made up, and I'm starting to wonder if you actually saw the film. But you don't have to take my word for it. This can be found on WIKI or IMBD:   According to the behind-the-scenes documentary portions of the film's DVD, there were slight continuity problems during the filming of the fight. This was said to have been due to the fact that real punches were thrown by both Stallone and Tarver, resulting in some swelling and nosebleeds earlier than scripted
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ramonesun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2010 at 9:49am
First off, Stallone did take actual punches for the film, so I'm starting to doubt that you saw it. But if you don't belive check this statement from Wiki, Imbd, and Amazon:
 
According to the behind-the-scenes documentary portions of the film's DVD, there were slight continuity problems during the filming of the fight. This was said to have been due to the fact that real punches were thrown by both Stallone and Tarver, resulting in some swelling and nosebleeds earlier than scripted.
 
But I'm sure Stallone was able to bribe everyone involved in the film to make up some bs story about him actually takeing punches. At least, that's what you seem to think. Second, you ignored the other facts mentioned about Rocky 6 (well reviewed, unpredictability, etc), and like I said, it's not everday that a hollywood entertainer takes punches from a real boxer. Someone who gets himself in serious pain because he wants to make something look as realistic as possible, cleary isnt as concerned with a fast buck as you make him out to be. Caring to make something look that realistic clearly isn't any choice, its an artistic one. You don't hear member of kiss saying "hey dude, I'll actually light myself on fire to make it look realistic for the fans!" You know why? Because they're entertainers who don't care about realism, authenticiy, or even critical credibility. So many of Jackie Chan's films get trashed by critics, yet even I would still consider him an artist as he does all his own stunts.
 
Third, nobody will remember Leslie for his serious roles (with the exception of Forbidden Planet), but for his comedic ones. Why wouldn't you call call him an artist, though. Sure he does the same roles, but the effort he goes into playing those roles is a craft and an art form all of its own. Since comedy is an art form, clearly he is an artist. Would you consider Wes Craven not an artist because most of his movies are in the horror genre? And that most of his later films are basically satire films of the horror genre? By one trick pony, you basically refer to anyone who dosnt constantly change style or craft.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote BurnHollywoodBurn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2010 at 12:05pm
1. Ah, yes, once again, the first film. The only good one in the entire series.
2. Okay, so Stallone didn't want to use a stunt double. That doesn't prove he's any better as an actor, it just proves he's willing to take one for the team.
3. Because Leslie Nelson (like Stallone with Rocky and Rambo) has beaten a dead horse with a stick with his parody movies that he's no longer all that funny. And like Stallone, he is now trapped in that typecast and will never be able to get out of it. Oh, and Wes Craven did one drama here and there, not to mention the "Scream" movies were parodies. Sadly, too many "Scream" movies were made (they are in the middle of making a 4th ... UGH!!!) and Craven hasn't done anything groundbreaking in over a decade, so he's also beating a dead horse with a stick.
 
If you're truly an artist with talent, you should be able to make serveral movies with different themes and different roles (ie. Kubrick and Spielberg), but some actors and directors just end up doing the same thing over and over again because they found something that works and refuse to escape from that little safety net (ie. these "artists" you keep mentioning).
The Four Horsemen of the Moviepocalypse: uncalled for sequels/remakes/reboots, 3-D surcharges, untalented "celebrities", and anything with Michael Bay's name attached to it.
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